PD Orfina BUND

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Thread: PD Orfina BUND

  1. #11
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    Well Andy why don't you tell us what you do know about?


    Quote Originally Posted by andy_s View Post
    Nothing to contribute except to say thanks for the information all of you - this was a bit of a grey area for me but I've come out of it much better informed - thanks.
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    New I had a silly picture of these..... this from 2005... do you think I had too many...?







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    Quote Originally Posted by ATG View Post
    do you think I had too many...?
    Naaaaaah!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATG View Post
    Well Andy why don't you tell us what you do know about?

    Ha - strictly in the learning stage compared to many here!


    I know I like the 2005 collection pics though - are they about the same age or has one just had a harder life than the others?

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    Two of these watches were the earlier and slightly smaller Valjoux 7750 version. It is possible that in the meantime Orfina used a different PVD treatment on their latter watches, which might explain the visual discrepancy between these models.

    But on the other hand, PVD can "mature" (some would say get ugly) quite differently from one watch to the next depending on usage...

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    Coming back to the BUND version, I have to confess that I very seriously considered selling my example a few weeks ago. But now I've decided that if I have to sell some watches in my collection, the Orfina wouldn't be included given the scarcity of genuine examples. I was lucky enough to find one once, so I don't want to tempt fate...

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    Yep the one on the right had a very thick like paint finish... very cool.... the middle one is a Bund civvy older and more worn and the left hand one was a put together of parts... case bezel seemed wider but it wore fine... I'd love one of those younger 70's ones on teh right.... really enjoyed that watch....

    I find myself 'missing' having a PVD watch and I always thought that I would get an old Sinn one day but now everyone knows about Sinn they ain't cheap anymore.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal S View Post
    Two of these watches were the earlier and slightly smaller Valjoux 7750 version. It is possible that in the meantime Orfina used a different PVD treatment on their latter watches, which might explain the visual discrepancy between these models.

    But on the other hand, PVD can "mature" (some would say get ugly) quite differently from one watch to the next depending on usage...
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    Well would you believe that by asking questions it helps us focus the whole pile of nonsense we do know about so ask away and tell us what your interested in.... just watching all the time is rude...

    Quote Originally Posted by andy_s View Post
    Ha - strictly in the learning stage compared to many here!


    I know I like the 2005 collection pics though - are they about the same age or has one just had a harder life than the others?
    #womw
    info@atgvintagewatches.com
    Call: +44 (0) 203 544 4012
    Official Dealers
    Bremont, Dodane 1857 & PITA Barcelona

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    Quote Originally Posted by flugzeit View Post
    Thanks, Jon. Here's a shot of the caseback which is in remarkably good condition.



    I'm trying to build up my knowledge about this watch and issued military watches more generally, so any information at all would be great.

    Cheers,
    -flugzeit

    I always seem to find the most interesting threads last....

    Anyway, this is an absolutely cracking example i have to confess!!! Congratulations!

    My own PVD 'BUND' is double struck as well and has a serial no. of 884.

    I have little to add to what Pascal, Dave and the other members have already written but the double struck numbers have most likely appeared immediately after the introduction of the Arctos 'Bund' in 1982.The decision for''unified'' NSNs for the Orfina and Arctos pieces, was mainly made due to simple logistics reasons:
    What is the need for multiple NSNs that all describe ''the same'' piece of equipment (which in military terms describes pieces of equipment which do exactly the same job & in the same way of course i.e 12-hour automatic chronographs with 24 hour display).

    The ''logistics'' explanation is mentioned also (unfortunately only in German) by Wolfgang Koll in the index of K. Knirim's book (under ''Zweite Weltkrieg und Bundeswehr'').

    So the casebacks that Orfina had already stamped (with the -1763 NSN) were again stamped with the new NSN after the introduction of the Arctos (which for some reason had a -8642 NSN) and before the watches were delivered to the military units...

    That is quite different from the rather more popular opinion that the watches were given the second NSN after they were serviced at the factory for the first time (which is wrong as far as i am concerned).


    Some photos of my example follow...








    X
    Last edited by X vintage; 30-04-2010 at 23:34.

  10. #20
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    Hello all,

    a guy called kevin Mcloren approached from one of WTB posts about a bund orfina and showed the picture of Pascal's example. Is he the real deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal S View Post
    First of all, congratulations for that acquisition. Great catch! This is a very fine example of a genuine issued BUND Orfina Porsche Design. I am lucky enough to own one as well, but unlike yours mine is wearing a few scars from its past military life...



    I have to confess that over the years I've grown a bit suspicious about many examples of what were supposed to be genuine issued PD. So if I may, I'll expand a bit on W.A. Manning's interesting article to share my personal thoughts on the subject.

    It is an established fact that the Bundeswehr aquired a large batch of these chronographs starting around 1979. Apparently, those watches were not only issued to pilots, but also to submarine officers and possibly other military units as well. Some were delivered with a plain dial showing only "Military Chronograph", and others had the "3H" to signal the use of tritium on the hands and indices. Most of these watches seem to have been delivered in a plain sand-blasted steel finish, but a few (probably depending on specific usage) were sporting a black PVD coating. Those are the real deal.

    I'll add to them the Venezuelan examples, which according to my research have been genuinely issued to Air Force pilots, but in very limited numbers. But I have no definite proof of that.

    And that, gentlemen, is it for the real documented issued watches! The rest is, I suspect, a lot of carefully crafted marketing. Allow me to elaborate:

    • NATO examples: I have the growing suspicion that those were made, and sold to the civilian market, as a result of some of the BUND watches finding their ways to the wrists of NATO pilots. I have yet to see convincing evidence that any real military contract was ever signed between NATO's command structure and Orfina.
    • Royal Navy: unless someone is able to provide us with genuine MoD documents, attesting of any relationship between Orfina and the British Royal Navy, those watches are part of an urban legend. Why am I saying that? Simply because the two words "Royal Navy" are in fact a registered trademark of Uhrenschmiede, the name under which Orfina is known these days. So it was particularly easy to put these words on the dial of their civilian-sold military models, and let word of mouth do the rest. Over the last 7 years, the only places I have seen these watches described without any doubt as "evaluation models for the Royal Navy" are eBay auctions for examples of these chronographs. Draw your own conclusions...
    • Swiss Air Force: a somewhat tricky topic. I have heard from many sources that some watches had been sold to the Swiss Air Force, but somehow I've never ever seen one with distinguishing military markings. Given the structure of the Swiss armed forces (conscription only), one might assume that the organized Swiss would know how to keep track of military issued equipment, and for that reason would assign clear references to each of its watches. So I am perfectly ready to be proven wrong here, but until then the Swiss issued watches will remain classified as civilian models.
    • UAE Air Force: as far as I can tell, those watches were indeed commissioned by some people in the UAE, possibly even military personnel. But in the absence of any clear military markings, those were nothing more than a "Unit pride" watch, even if they may had possibly been ordered by the pilots themselves.
    • US Air Force: same situation as the UAE chronos, as my take is that it was the pilots of one particular unit who ordered a batch of these watches for themselves, possibly after having seen those on the wrist of the German counterparts either during a deployment in Europe or during a military exercise such as the annual Red Flag.

    I'll add that any watch with the reference 7177 was almost certainly made for the civilian market, even though it had all the characteristics of its military issued elders. It saddens me to see how many of those are sold as "genuine military issue" watches nowadays...

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