User Tag List

Likes Likes:  0
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Tengler Bund

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Tengler Bund

    Hi all,
    on another watch forum in germany there is a discussion on, whether the Tengler Bund was issued solely as a "sidereal" watch. I think it can be taken that there were only 500 produced + maybe 70 prototypes. We all know the watch was issued in a leather case containing a circular star map and some odds and ends. If the watch was issued as a sidereal timed watch (A sidereal day is approximately 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.091 seconds) how come the ones that I have seen or heard of up till now are running pretty well close to normal time (24hrs)?
    Anyone got any suggestions???

    Regards,

    Jimmy

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    2,934
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I had one. It was a perfectly standard 5100. Adjusted properly it ran to within 5 secs a day, no problem.
    I understand it was issued with a tight tolerance of adjustment, but no other changes.
    It was issued with the star map, as the fabled Sternzeit Reguliert Heuer Bund was, but that is its only connection with Sidereal time.
    IMHO it was intended to be a precise military chronograph, not one limited to the navigational use only, by adjustment to sidereal time.
    BTW Herr Tengler ordered 600 cases, I have seen a copy of the order, so there should be that number in total.

    Dave
    If it's Lemania-powered, I'm interested. Tool Chrono - interested. Dive Chrono - interested. Interesting - interested

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If you meant this document, then it was for an OFFER, not an ORDER for 550 cases for the lemania 5100 movement.


    Regards

    Jimmy

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    2,934
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    No, I didn't mean that one, it was a tabulated order. I'm afraid I cannot find it just now.
    I set little store by that letter anyway.
    It is inaccurate, and clearly not related to the final watch produced
    It says 20 Bar WR, when all Tenglers are marked 5 Bar (despite a screw-down crown, which I always hought was odd)



    It also states Sapphire Glass, which is also wrong.
    And it pictures an Arctos dial, not a Tengler, as the Tengler had minute numerals on the indices (whereas the Arctos did not). There is also the script near the date window, omitted on the scan in that letter.



    The picture does at least have the right hands on it.

    Dave
    Last edited by DaveS; 17-02-2011 at 13:36.
    If it's Lemania-powered, I'm interested. Tool Chrono - interested. Dive Chrono - interested. Interesting - interested

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Come on Dave, although you are right with your observation and description, the watch on the form was a drawing and not a photo (he could just as well have photo´d an Arctos) . I don´t even believe the drawing was on the document originaly, if you look you might just see where the drawing was fixed on the form with cellotape.
    I suspekt those were early days, without even one prototype having been made. The watch probably turned out different to what was originaly intended. In that letter he asked for a price quote for Ca 550 cases to comply with his quoted specifications;

    I hereby request (single unit price) for a quotation to supply chronograph watch cases for the chrono-automatic movement Cal. 5100
    stainless steel case 20 bar
    screwed crown
    2 round buttons/pushers
    sapphire crystal
    Spring Bars

    Jimmy
    Last edited by papazulu; 17-02-2011 at 13:34.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    By the way, yours was a nice timepiece...Im chasing one now to complete my Bund set!

    Jimmy

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    2,934
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Hi Jimmy (or is it Werner?)

    Just spent about 40 minutes trying to find the 600 reference. I can't, but as you say, he does ask for Ca 550 cases, Ca being Circa, or approximately.

    I agree about the photo, but the discrepancies are clear, and as you say, it shows how the watch was not fully designed at the time of writing.

    The complete handset is not Arctos, it is (nearly) Tengler, with the detail minute hand, pointed hour hand and dart-shaped 24-hr hand. Not sure about the "square-winged" chrono-minute hand though.

    Bearing in mind the discrepancies and the request for a price for approximately 550 examples, it is just as likely that the ordered quantity changed, as well as the waterproofing, crystal specification and so forth.

    I will try and dig out the reference

    Dave
    If it's Lemania-powered, I'm interested. Tool Chrono - interested. Dive Chrono - interested. Interesting - interested

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Hi Jimmy (or is it Werner?)

    I will try and dig out the reference

    Dave
    You can call me whatever you want, as long as its decent

    I do hope you find that order, it might light up a few discrepancies!

    Jimmy

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    1,470
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Probably of no relevence whatsoever but I'd thought it was just the Heuer bunds that had sidereal time in a limited batch (50)?

    Konrad:

    Description:
    The first chronograph of Heuer-Leonidas for the Bundeswehr was Leonidas (cal. Valjoux 22) in relatively rare items and accordingly interesting for the collector. Next came Heuer and Sinn (cal. Heuer 1550 equal to Vx 23) in the same steel case like the Leonidas but with a somewhat different movement. The models of Heuer and Sinn are identical. The reason is that Sinn was the German supplier for Heuer of Switzerland.
    The chronograph of Heuer was supplied in a very interesting variation together with a theodolit for astro navigation, but regulated in sidereal time (cal. 1551 SGSZ). Vers.-Nr.: 6645-12-148-2298.

    Movement: Valjoux MN 230, flyback function, 36 h 17 jewels, max. + 10 s/day, max. pressure: 3 bar, working temperature: -18 C to 6o C, Incabloc-shock resist, antimagnetic, H3- luminescent, year of introduction: 1968, weight: 50 g, producer: Heuer-Leonidas S.A. Biel, Switzerland.

    Application:
    All hand-worn models had the flyback function similar to those of the Third Reich Air Force and to those of the French Air Force, which allowed the chronograph to be pushed back to zero while running, with the capability of immediate restart.
    This chronograph is regulated to sideral time and is part of an equipment for astronavigation ‘Vermessung Theodolith 6675-12-140-9136’ and to ‘astronomische Richtungsbestimmung,Vers.Nr. 6675-12-308-8782 ’ in a nice leather case.

    The chronograph was used to get the time while observing the azimut in astronomic measurements. A sun year has 365 days, a.sun day has 24 hours, because of the earth moving around the sun in one year a sideral year has 366 days starting in spring and a sideral day has 23 hours, 56 min.and 3,5 seconds. So for fast astronavigation a watch or clock regulated in sideral time saves the calculating effort.

    This watch has a separate reg.-no. and referance and is marked on the dial. The amount of pieces produced may be 50, so they are very rare.


    http://www.knirim.homepage.t-online.de/a07mond.htm

    Perhaps a small batch (50) of Tenglers were made to sidereal spec, as I understand it was with the Heuers?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    231
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What I always wondered in these discussions about sidereal time for all other watches than the Heuer Sternzeit, is the lack of a unique NSN number. The Germans usually have everything documented and organised, but for some reason the sidereal adjusted watches should be an exception?

    I do not know anything of the ordering procedures in Bundeswehr (or any other forces), but I see a logistic nightmare if not all watches bearing the same NSN was made according to same specifications. To further complicate the matter Arctos, Tengler and later Orfina share the same NSN. Looking in the ISO/NSN references 6645-12-194-8642 = 5100BWL, and the old Orfina number 6645-12-182-1763=5100BW. Could be interesting to know what the additional "L" denotes?

    Last I think it would make sense to investigate the actualy use of the theodolit and the navigation exercise. Can the measurements be made so accurate that sidereal time adjustments are needed?

    /Lars

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •